Transcript: Newsom and Pritzker Show How To Attack An Authoritarian

Bacon: I think we’ve talked about Pritzker and Newsom a few times. We’ve talked about Democratic AGs. Are the other Democratic governors involved in in resisting, I don’t think I know, but part of it is Newsom and Pritzker are presumably, presumably running for president, so I think that’s part of what’s going on. That’s why the media covers them. But are the other Democratic governors involved in resisting?

Gerney: I think, look, different governors are taking different approaches—and of course they represent very different states. I think, Perry, you’re from Kentucky, so you’ve got a Democratic governor, Beshear, who’s in a very red state. And, you know, I think the right answer for governors is that you can’t—you can’t have everyone do the same thing.

I do think you see a number of governors who are creatively pushing back in different ways. For example, President Trump was talking about sending the National Guard to Baltimore, saying Baltimore’s out of control with crime, when in fact crime has been going down there for many years. Wes Moore, the governor, said, ‘Hey, why don’t you come to Baltimore and walk around with me—and come see for yourself.’ I thought it was a creative, kind of playful response that shut the president up.

Another governor who I think has handled this era pretty well is Hochul, the New York state governor. After the November election, she had the second-lowest favorability rating of any governor in the country. Now she has a positive favorability rating. I think part of that is that she’s counterpunched in different ways at different times with the Trump administration.

She’s done that even though there are things the state has to negotiate with the Trump administration around. For example, there’s a congestion pricing plan for New York City that has to do with how cars are tolled to reduce congestion and raise revenue. The Trump administration has tried to block it. But I think Hochul has both been punching at times, negotiating at others, and I think that’s the best strategy with Trump—which is, if you put your hands up right away, he’s just going to bowl you over and keep taking. 

Bacon: Let’s move to other institutions and then before we close here. 28:48: So talk about, I want to talk about cities. Let’s talk about cities first.  Are there any are there good, are useful things cities are doing, and are there useful resistant cities and are there things that cities could be doing better. 

Gerney: Yeah, I mean, I think that cities — they’re on the front lines of these questions, whether it’s crime or education — and so they have real choices to make about how much they’re going to facilitate things like the ICE raids, or not participate, or try to protect people. So I think there is a lot for cities to do.

I think their hands, constitutionally, are a bit more tied than states’. Cities don’t exist in the Constitution — states do — and cities are basically creations of states. In some states, cities are very powerful. New York City, for example, has a massive budget — New York City’s budget is the size of the state of Florida’s.

And right now, there’s this mayoral campaign, and Zohran Mamdani seems like he’s the favorite to win the general election. I think that will be a real bellwether for other mayors, and also a point of contestation with Trump. Trump’s from New York — it’s the biggest city — and he’s definitely wanted to use Mamdani as something of a foil. I think you may see a lot of confrontation shifting to New York in the new year, with a new mayor.

Bacon: We mentioned corporations a little bit earlier, but I mean, it’s corporations. I wish they were doing more, but is that probably the most logical place where, of course, they’re falling in line?

Gerney: I mean, I think that—look, I think there’s been a massive capitulation by businesses, and they’re going to look at their bottom lines and take the path of least resistance. That’s what businesses mostly do. But I also think there have been some mistakes and overreactions.

For example, among the capitulating law firms, there were a lot of big firms that were under pressure from Trump to settle with the Trump administration and offer free legal services to the president’s preferred causes. The firms that settled—many of them have lost lawyers who’ve left, and they’ve lost clients. Meanwhile, the firms that fought back, based on what accounts there are, seem to be doing quite well.

And part of that is this: if you’re in a dispute with someone, do you want to hire the lawyer who might be cowed and give up because there’s a little pressure, or do you want the lawyer who’s never going to back down? I think it’s a real problem for these big, global businesses. They have to recognize, yes, who the president of the United States is matters, and the policies of the United States matter. But they also have to sell across these 50 states—and who the governors are, what the policies are in those states, that matters too. What the policies are around the world matters as well.

And they have to think about what’s rational for their businesses. So as it relates, for example, to climate change: Donald Trump may decide that climate change is a hoax, that he hates windmills, and that he wants to push businesses out of that sector. He’s had some success bullying businesses so far. But they have to think—what is the real challenge here? Who are the other markets and actors that are ultimately going to set the rules around this? What strategy ultimately makes sense?

There’s a lot of power in influencing those decisions, especially among blue states. If you can coordinate your regulatory incentives, you may see businesses begin to behave differently. And I think you may see that begin to happen as we get closer to the end of the Trump administration. Despite his threats to run for a third term—which he’s not constitutionally allowed to do—someday this is going to end. It doesn’t mean the challenges will end, but every actor is going to be assessing what makes sense for them this month, and remembering that what they do this month may have consequences 12 or 24 months from now.

Bacon: Let me close up — we’re gonna be in here on — I want to hit four other institutions, and I’ll give you my four other parts of our site, and I’ll let you — I’ll give my views on them and then see what you think.

So my sense is: congressional Democrats started off pretty poorly in terms of this, but they’ve gotten more aggressive now. I think you’ve been urging me, when you and I have talked, that states might be a better venue for this anyway because they have more actual power. But I think congressional Democrats are getting better — though they’re not great.

I think the public has been there from the beginning. If you look at the No Kings protests and things like that, the public — and Trump’s approval rating has gone down a lot — the public seems to be resisting and opposing pretty strongly.

I’d say higher education I’ve been very disappointed by, and surprisingly so — another place where I think capitulation has been too fast and really bad. And then the news media is another place I’d say has been generally disappointing, though you’ve got great public work at ProPublica, The New Republic, you know, some of the more left-wing publications have done pretty well, I’d say — but the sort of mainstream.

So — news media, higher ed, congressional Democrats, the public. Any of those you want to take, disagree with me about, or want to amplify?

Gerney: I’ll try to do a little bit of each. I think, you know, congressional Democrats—I appreciate what they’re doing right now with the standoff on the shutdown. I think they’ve settled on a clear ask around health care that makes a lot of sense.

I also think their actual leverage and power are quite limited, so they have a hard hand to play. Part of the reason we’ve been more focused on states—and governors and attorneys general—is that they just have a lot more they can do to successfully obstruct and offer a different path forward.

On media, it’s a huge challenge, as you know, and it started long before the Trump administration. Because of changes in social media platforms and how advertising works, there’s been incredible stress in the industry that’s driving consolidation. But what’s really concerning, I think, is the Trump administration using its leverage as a regulator to influence or force news organizations to capitulate.

There was the bogus Disney–George Stephanopoulos settlement. Then there was the 60 Minutes bogus settlement and lawsuit. And I think what you’re seeing is this: Republicans have complained for a long time about mainstream media, but what’s going to be left of mainstream media in a couple of years will be very consolidated and largely aligned with Trump.

So I think it’ll be really important in this environment for there to be more alternative media—and for people to become part of the media more. I think it’ll be a lot of Substack video chats, newsletters, and different places that will be essential. It doesn’t mean that all the pillars of media are falling apart. A lot of people complain about The New York Times, but I think they’ve probably handled these last ten months reasonably well. Still, it’s a real challenge.

Bacon: And on that note, I think it’s been a great conversation. I think you’ve given us some positive things to think about, which I think is important in that the states are resisting. I think it’s an important story, anything else you want to finish on, anything else you wanna add?

Gerney: I mean, I think my advice for regular people who are trying to figure out how to get involved and make a difference is this: people have often said, Think globally, act locally. I’d really look around you—at your city councils, your state legislators, your state comptrollers, offices you may not be paying much attention to—and start thinking about what you want from them.

How could they make where you are work better and be a better place to live? But also, how can you use your power to help them use theirs to push back?

Bacon: That’s great. Randi, where can people find your work? I don’t think you do a ton of social media, but the things you’ve written that you want to highlight. 

Gerney: I had an op-ed in The Washington Post, something in Democracy Journal, the American Prospect, if you Google my name, you’ll find it, but hopefully more coming soon. 

Bacon: Good. Arkadi, thanks for joining us. Good to see you.

Gerney: Thanks, Perry. Bye.